Potty party pants (Mar 29, 2016)
Reviewer: Whitney Hehemann
I really like these training pants. They haven't leaked and my daughter wants them off right away so I know they're not too comfy. Perfect combo of thick lining so not to leak, but still allows the kiddo to know what just went down. Two thumbs up! And they're super cute!
potty pants (Feb 22, 2016)
Reviewer: Susan Butt
Not made for slim babies (Nov 19, 2015)
Reviewer: Regina Icenhower
I think they would be great, but didn't work for my twin granddaughters. The leg openings were too big, as they are slim little girls, so had to return them. I had purchased the smallest size that was available.
Nice quality pants (Jun 26, 2015)
Reviewer: Katie Gurule
These are really nice quality pants. The only thing is... my daughter still goes in them like regular pull ups. I was hoping she would feel the wetness and it would bother her, but it doesn't. I will keep them for naps, long car rides and overnight. They did NOT leak and washed up well.
They do what they say! (Jun 19, 2015)
After reading reviews on tightness in the legs, I decided to order mine based on measurements alone. My toddler has thick thighs so all the other training pants were extremely tight. Based on measurements I decided to go bigger and buy the 4x. They were a little bigger than I expected but do the job. Since they are a little big, I put on a skirt with sewn in shorts or a 4T panty over the potty patty training pants and it works great. So far, she has only peed in them four times. Three of those times were when she was sleeping and one time out of pure grumpy tiredness. With that said, I had no issues with it getting everything wet. I did have a little dampness on the sides of the thighs but I think that is due to them being a little big. However, these hold a lot of pee. I like that I can wash them and not spend extra money on diapers for during the day wear. The fabric on the outside is soft and supple. Most of all, she likes them. With them being a little big, I will be able to use them as she grows as she is only 2.
LOVE THESE TRAINING PANTIES! (Jun 09, 2015)
Reviewer: Kris Palmertree
These were exactly what I was looking for in a training pant! I personally think disposable training pants are too close to diapers so I was looking for a waterproof panty for my then 16 month old daughter. We have been dabbling in potty training and now that she's almost 2 it's time to get serious and these are perfect! They feel like real panties but if she doesn't make it to the potty then it catches the accident, leak free! We love them!
STILL don't want to... (May 25, 2015)
Reviewer: KEN H
Purchased because 3 yr old refuses to use potty. THOUGHT she would feel wet and it help with the training. She wet the Potty Pants AND her outer shorts (several times)and acted like there was nothing wrong. Still said" Don't want to..." when asked if she wanted to try using the potty... :-(
Happy With Items (Apr 30, 2015)
Reviewer: Angela Taylor
I am happy with the product. It does what the website says it will. I'm not sure if it is teaching my daughter to be wet is nasty or not. But I doubt that is the products fault, lol. My daughter is stubborn. But in the meantime, the training pants are keeping my furniture and house dry! So I'm happy! Plus, the are washable and reusable. Double winner in my opinion!
Potty Training a Late Bloomer (Apr 14, 2015)
Reviewer: Casie Zerbe
My order was perfect! I was stuggling to find training underwear for my 3 1/2 year old who is the size of a 5 year old.
AMAZING!!! (Dec 05, 2014)
Reviewer: Kelsey May
Really love these pants, only down fall I have with these is you have to really work in the pants in the legs and pull on them tight to get them up by the legs, my daughter wakes up dry (I use these to fit over her diaper) they are ABSOLUTLEY 100% water proof! Have yet to try these after them being washed the first time!
Dry bed (Nov 29, 2014)
Reviewer: Brandy Potter
I am very happy with these Panties, it was the first night where the bed stayed dry and no awful smell.
Potty Patty with waterproof exterior is the best (Oct 28, 2014)
Reviewer: Melinda M.
We ordered a few different brands/kinds of training pants and these are hands down my favorite. They let my daughter know she's wet but they don't get her clothes all wet. She has never done #2 in them so I can't speak to that job, but they've handled multiple washings per week very well (we've had them 3 months). Dry them inside out as the waterproof exterior does make them harder to dry if they're not inside out. My daughter is about 23 or 24 pounds and we bought the small size. They fit well.
Potty patty (Jun 25, 2014)
Reviewer: Robert Lyons
Great product better than pull ups only negative was little bulky but still able to place pants or shorts on
Great product! (May 29, 2014)
So far I love these potty training pants! They hold an accident so there are no puddles. They fit well, and are snug, but not tight around my daughter's legs. They wash very nicely, although they take longer to air dry with the extra padding inside. The only downside is the "boring" potty patty design.
Wonderful for potty training (May 23, 2014)
Reviewer: JENNIFER KIRKPATRICK
Works great at catching messes and is very soft so daughter didn't mind the switch from diapers.
Training Pants (Jan 15, 2014)
These are the perfect training pants. They are waterproof and leak resistant without that crinkly, plastic feel and sound that so many other waterproof training pants have. My daughters love them and they have been a great tool to help us on our potty training journey.
They are a really snug fit without a lot of give in the legs (to keep messes contained). Something to keep in mind when deciding on what size to order.
Good product (Jan 05, 2014)
Reviewer: Emily Espada
Great for overnights if the child doesnt have alot to drink at night, as for the day time, it must be replaced every 2 - 3 hours if the child is not potty train, overall good product and worth the money
Not for us (Dec 17, 2013)
Reviewer: Bobbi Matthews
I can see how these could work, but like previous reviews, my daughter wouldn't wear them because they were too tight around her legs. I think they need to be to keep them from leaking, but I couldn't get her to wear them. These were kind of a waste of money for us.
Doesn't leak, works great (Nov 05, 2013)
Reviewer: Donna Marsh
So these potty training pants are great! They don't leak through at all and appear to be comfortable to my daughter. You do have to order a size up though because of the narrow leg opening. However, there is one draw back to these training pants...If your kid is the type who will pee in a diaper because they know it won't leak, these may not be for you. My daughter has figured out that these don't leak through and will sit in pee (if she happens to go when I don't catch her) just like a diaper. So these may be best used for outings/sleeping (if your child is going in public restrooms and wakes up at night to go potty).For the most part, I just put her in regular underwear at home and the shock of seeing it leak down her leg is enough to make her go to the toilet. They are convenient when you are busy with something and don't put your child on the toilet..at least you won't have a mess to clean up. I can't say how absorbent they are for poo as she has never done that in them. My little girl just turned 3 and is slightly smaller than average height and weight and I had to buy a large. She is medium build and probably about 28-30 pounds. I hope this review helps! Just remember if your child isn't super thin, then order a size up. If they are aware that diapers and pull ups hold their mess, then these may be better used for night/outing training.
soft and great fit (Oct 28, 2013)
Reviewer: Laura Appleby
I was very impressed with how well these fit my daughter, who is small for her age (23 pounds). I ordered the smallest size and they fit her perfectly. They are soft and they must be comfortable because my daughter likes to wear them and she's pretty picky. We are about halfway there on the potty training thing, and these trainers ensure that the carpet doesn't get wet when she has an accident. However, they are not completely waterproof when she has a big accident. After reading other reviews and the product description, I knew I would still need to put her in a pull up or diaper for naps and bedtime, but I had hoped to be able to use these on long trips as well. I will still be using a pull up or diaper for long trips though because they don't quite hold everything in. They are great for around the house and other places where there is easy access to a bathroom.
Great Leak-through training pants (Sep 18, 2013)
Reviewer: Janelle Keele
These are very soft, stretchy traing pants that really contain leaks. When my daughter is wearing these I have not had a single leak, which is much appreciated! They are comfy and cute and the medium size was perfect for my slightly skinny, 30 pound 3 year old.
Good product!! (May 01, 2013)
Reviewer: Alizabeth Acevedo
These underpant are very well made. They are like a cloth diaper with a waterproof lining. They are not completely waterproof, however, but they are very absorbent. They are a bit tight on my daughter's legs. She is average size so they might be very tight on a bigger child.
Love These (Apr 17, 2013)
Reviewer: Tina Tweeten
I love these. Sizing is funny so don't order too many to start with or you will be sending them back. My girls were both in XXL by 18 months. and were wearing a size L in the regular cotton trainers. hard to take off with poop accidents so buy the regular cotton ones for during the day. I use these at night and at naptime only. Only one major leak (she was super sick) in the year and 2 kids that have worn them. They are just starting to get wear holes.
potty patty training pants (Apr 17, 2013)
Reviewer: Krista Barrett
Training pants were very helpful for my little girl, but they are definitely a little tight,I bought the size listed for her weight, and luckily she only used them for about a week before being able to wear big girl underwear or I definitely would've had to reorder in the next size up. All in all helpful and she liked potty patty and did not want to go potty on her. Lol
2 in 1 training pants (Mar 04, 2013)
Reviewer: Lorraine Watkins
Love these! My granddaughter feels when she wets and everything stays in!
Nice (Dec 13, 2012)
I love the quality of this product!!!
Little Treasure's Daycare family loves them too.
Thank you for larger sizes! (Oct 15, 2012)
Reviewer: Alicia Culp
Just want to thank you for carrying larger sizes (waterproof training
I have a beautiful little girl with Down syndrome who is still
working on the potty training at a slightly older age. I am unable to find
larger sizes for her anywhere. Thank you so much!
They did wet through (Oct 12, 2012)
The first time I put them one my daughter, she went potty and they leaked.
I ordered the correct size according to the size chart. I don't know maybe it was a fluke? We'll keep trying...
Sizing is way off! (Oct 01, 2012)
I ordered the potty scottys for my son a few years ago and I absolutely loved them! They wore so well and fit great.
The ones i just ordered for my daughter on the other hand are sized horrible! I tried my sons on her to get an idea of the sizing and they fit perfect at a size small so I ordered her a size medium so that she would grow into them as she weights 31lb and they are so tight I can barely get them on. I assumed that they would fit and took them out of the packages and washed them only to waste my money as she barely fits them. They are not cheap and it is a very disappointing purchase. I refused to buy any other training pant at the store because I was familiar with the high quality of these....never again. :(
PTC Comment: We encourage everyone to please use not just the weight chart that is on our site but the sizing chart as well. Every child is differently shaped so weight chart may not work by itself.
We also strongly recommend that when you receive your orders, that you should try one of the training pants on the child (preferably with some type of underpants on between them and the training pants) to make sure that they fit correctly before washing them. This allows for the opportunity to do an exchange for the correct size.
Nice, and worth the money (Sep 03, 2012)
Reviewer: Jacqueline Claudia
They don't leak, and feel/look like real underpants.
We use them when we are leaving the house.... "just in case".
potty patty training pants (Aug 25, 2012)
Reviewer: potty patty
The size runs small because I went by the weight chart and when we tried them on they were too tight.
PTC COMMENT: Along with the weight chart, we offer our parents and grandparents a sizing chart to help assist them in making their decision on sizes a little easier.
The only training pants in large sizes that do the job!! (Aug 19, 2012)
Reviewer: Victoria White
Potty training a child with special needs is a real challenge....finding training pants to fit a larger child was just the first.
I'm a senior citizen who has A LOT of experience in this field. I have tried the product & I'm placing an order for a dozen more today.
I love these! (Jul 23, 2012)
Reviewer: Mama KS
These training pants are great! They are everything I expected them to be.
The water proof lining is helpful for accidents. I purchased these based on all of the great reviews and they are definitely worth the money.
They have already saved me tons of money on pull ups and diapers! Love this brand!
Does not work well for heavy wetters. (Jul 19, 2012)
They fit well but do not hold much in. They have leaked every time I have put them on my daughter.
keeps all wetness in! (Jun 18, 2012)
These are great! They kept my daughter's bed dry during her nap. I have not tried them at night yet though.
I like them because she stays dry on the outside (no pee all over the floor) but she can feel the pee on the inside. Better then a pull up for us.
We recommend that you consider our Night Time Training Pants for night time use. These are specially made to hold multiple urination's, where the 2 in 1 training pants are made for accidents during the day.
not for heavy wetters (May 23, 2012)
Reviewer: maureen l
>Nice, soft and light. Not bulky, but then they don't absorb as much as the bulky ones do.
PTC Comments: We are so glad that you liked the product. They do not absorb as much as the night time ones because they are made to protect against accidents during day time use only. They were not designed to be used for night time use.
Way better than the Gerber pants (Mar 27, 2012)
Reviewer: Sweet Tee & Tako's
I bought these and the Gerber All In One Waterproof Trainer for Girls at the same time. My daughter loves these, they are her big girl panties. She won't touch the Gerber pants. They work good too. I haven't had the issues drying them that other people talk about either. Potty Training takes patience!!!
Great for potty training (Feb 23, 2012)
Reviewer: Pat Wilkes
I first bought these
about 2 years ago for my grandson who "refused" to deal with potty training. After he got the "hang of it", he still wears them at night almost 2 years later when he occasionally has "accidents". He knows that when he puts on his PJs, he also puts on these panties. He's never worn "pull ups" or any type of diaper-like panties. These panties have been through hundreds of washings and dryings and they're still in great condition. It's saved my daughter lots of money and my grandson has a positive attitude about going to the potty.
I just purchased more as a gift to a friend who is now potty training her daughter. It may not be the cutest or girliest gift, but I know she'll appreciate these panties for years to come.
very nice! (Jan 12, 2012)
I found that the pants
run a tad small, but that may be to keep them from leaking. If my granddaughter needs more of them, I am going to order a larger size.
Don't waste your money (Aug 17, 2011)
Don't waste your money on these. When I washed them for the first time I couldn't even get them dry. I put them in the dryer on high heat twice and they still wouldn't dry! You would be better off with pullups that these expensive panties.
great product (Aug 12, 2011)
I bought these training pants
because my daughter was seeing the pullups from huggies as diapers. we bought two one for the nighttime, and one for nap times. During the remainder of the day she wears regular underwear, we have had success with this concept because she cannot rely on training pants all the time or she won't budge in potty training. She is a somewhat difficult child to potty train, so these are helping and they shipped asap, got here next day, but we do live in the same state.
Super absorbent (Jun 06, 2011)
My daughter is petite (22lbs and 22 mo old) wears an XS in the training pants, but we had to order a small in these because they don't come that small. They are a little large on her and she hasn't worn them as much because of that fact. The time she had them on to test them they were VERY absorbent that being wet didn't bother her. We will be using these more for naps,bedtime, and long trips because they are so absorbent, but we like the potty training pants kit
for actual training. They are excellent for containing large accidents and are a great quality for the price. Note: they have an extra layer in them so they require multiple drying cycles.
2 in 1 waterproof potty training pants girls (Apr 12, 2011)
Reviewer: mom from ky
These training pants have actually worked better than i thought. They are soft and feel good to the skin.
My daughter is 5 and still is not dry at night. I decided to try these because she was growing out of the largest size of pull-ups and the goodnights were the next option. I wanted to find something that was more cost effective and possibly help her "feel" wet. We have been using these for a couple of weeks and they work fantastic. I also purchased the waterproof pull on pants
to put over them so her bed does not get wet. This combination works great! Her bed and pj's are dry which was my main concern! These pants wash well and i have not had any problems with them getting dry in the dryer. I do have a front load washing machine, which really spins the water out of the clothes so they are dryer than the conventional washers. I also turn them inside out and they dry in one drying cycle on low heat. For the sizing problems I just went with the measurements and did not worry with the weight on the size chart and they fit her good.
These pants are a great alternative to the pull-ups! I will buy these in the next size if she still isn't ready to stay dry in the night!
SO FAR SO GOOD (Feb 22, 2011)
Reviewer: Kristy Walker
SO FAR THEY HAVE NOT MADE A MESS!
My daughter is 29 months and 25 lbs and it holds a mess if she has one. They work great!
2 in 1 Waterproof potty training pants (Feb 17, 2011)
I bought the 2 in 1 Waterproof Training Pants for my granddaughter to protect my furniture, carpets, and my car while shes learning to use the potty and they have been great!
pants (Dec 14, 2010)
Reviewer: Robin Gichuhi
Very good for my 5 year old to use. Easy to pull on and hold any overnight accidents. Can wash by hand and dry to next morning.
Potty Training Pants (May 13, 2010)
Reviewer: Mom of 2
These pants are a reasonable alternative to disposable pullups.
I did have problems with nighttime wetting until I started doubling up.
Until then, my daughter woke up screaming and uncomfortable with her bed, and pjs (tops and bottoms) all wet.
I did get tired of changing bedding and clothes at 1:30 in the morning so I'm glad I discovered the doubling up solution.
These also take a REALLY long time to dry. I have turned them inside out in the dryer with slightly better results.
1st day...a little big in legs and waist (Mar 02, 2010)
Ok...I just got them in the mail about an hour ago. My daughter is 231/2 mo. She weighs right at 30 pounds.
I ordered the size medium, but the legs are a little big, I can easily put a finger space in the leg.
The waist is a tad big. They are super puffy, but my daughter doesn't seem to mind.
I bought them for daycare to train her because she doesn't like the diapers and they won't let her just wear panties.
I hope these work. I'll let you know. When she has an accident in them...that'll be the true test.
I'll write another review then.....I'm wondering, will they shrink a bit in the wash?
I think the're cute... I used cloth diapers for her first 3 1/2 mo. so I know how beneficial a reusable cloth panty can be.
I bought the night time panty too....we'll try it tonight. :)
Annie and Soph
Potty Training Concept's Response;
We look forward to recieving more of the feed back you have on our product.
We would also like to clarify and assist further customers trying to choose what size to wear.
While we are aware that many of our customers go by the weigh next to the size, we highly recomend the use of our Size Chart for each of our different style training pants .
We added weight due to a high demand but quickly found it to be misleading as children wear their weight in different areas of the body.
Some have thin legs but a muscular torso and vice versa, thus affecting the fit of the pants on the child.
Very disappointed! (Feb 10, 2010)
Reviewer: Mad MN Mom
I bought these for my two daughters to help them with night time training (They are trained for daytime).
I knew there would be accidents so I was enticed by the Waterproof feature.
The top and leg openings are not built right.
Pajamas then sheets get soaked. I have been washing sheets for a week now and have returned to Pull-ups.
Boy was I ripped off!
Potty Training Concepts Response;
While this item can be used for night time training for younger children, we do not recomend them for older children since they have larger bladders, and these are not diapers that can hold multiple wettings.
We do carry a product specifically designed for night time training and full bladder releases.
The Night Time Training pant is specifically designed to move with the child as they sleep and hold more elimination for when a child is less like to notice that they are wet.
An Truly Excellent Product !!! A thumb up to the inventor !!! (Feb 04, 2010)
Reviewer: Anastasia NJ
I just received my 6 pack of Potty Training Pants today and I must say that I am very impressed!
I have a 39 months old who is extremely resistant to potty training. We have been at it for 8 months and nothing worked.
No punishments nor rewards did the trick. The toddler underpants didn't contain anything and just freaks her out every time there is a puddle around her feet.
I did that for two weeks and had to give up because the weather was getting cold and we could not go outside like that. Not to mention she goes through all of her clothes in 1 to 2 days.
The disposable pull-ups keeps her too dry so she totally lacks incentive to pee in the potty.
With these Potty Training Pants, she felt the wetness so right after her "accident" she immediately asked to use the potty.
Additionally, it contained about 8 to 12 oz of her urine which was impressive. Nothing leaked or dripped. Leaving all her clothes and my house clean and tidy.
She wore the Night Time Training Pants to sleep tonight. We will see what happens???
Also, due to constipation and based on the pediatric gastroenterologist suggestions, my daughter needs to drink about 60 ounces of water everyday. So every times she goes, it is minimally 8 to 10 oz if not more.
The fact that your Potty Training Pants can contain so much urine says a lot about the quality of the pants. I truly gives it a thumbs up ! Thanks to the inventor !!!
Not really waterproof (Jan 06, 2010)
Don't be fooled, these are not truly 100% waterproof. If your child pees only a little, then it will probably be waterproof, but much more and they are not. My 4yo daughter is trained during the day but not fully at night. I put plastic pants over top of these on my daughter at night so that during the night I only have to change her underwear and not the bedsheets. That said, I'm happy to use these with the plastic pants because it saves me money instead of buying disposable pull-ups.
Also, these seem to run a little small in size. My daughter is 34 lbs. and the XL fits her perfectly. The Large size probably would have been too small.
Reuseable?? (May 28, 2009)
I was just wondering if these are washable and reusable?
Potty Training Concepts Response:
Yes, these are washable and reusable; in fact the inside is 100% cotton, so your child will feel the wetness.
Great for naps... (May 27, 2009)
Reviewer: Loving Parent
I potty trained my 19 month old daughter over the weekend and these were great for nap time. I put them on over my daughters "big girl panties" and she has yet to pee in them the first time. I also use them along with the piddle pad for car rides. She hasn't had an accident in them yet, so I can't say if they truly are waterproof, but they are good and thick so I know that they will absorb more than the regular panties will. They tend to run alittle small though, so I would suggest that you buy a size bigger.
Not Waterproof (May 17, 2009)
These pants do not contain leaks as well as they suggest they do. They are NOT waterproof. That being said, they are working for daughter. She's been wearing them mostly accident free for a week now.
Waterproof, but... (Feb 12, 2009)
I bought several pairs of these for my toddler twins (boy/girl). They weigh about 33 pounds, so I bought the large. The elastic waist is too tight and hard for them to pull up and down on their own. The "body" of the underpants is very "balloon-like" and makes getting into their clothes difficult.
Love these!!!! Super! (Dec 10, 2008)
I love these pants, my little is pretty much potty trained but still has accidents. But I wanted to get rid of the pull ups. She wet these in the first 30 minutes and hasn't been wet since. She says they felt yucky wet.I was surprised how much liquid they held in. I did order the XL and glad I did. The legs opening fit perfect. She only weighs 36lbs, but after reading everyone reviews I'm glad I did.YOU HAD TO GET THESE FOR POTTY TRAINING THEY ARE A MUST HAVE! This is my 3rd child and I wish I knew about these with the other 2.
Wished they worked! (Dec 10, 2008)
My daughter is 35 pounds, but she is has a big build. Which means she has chunky thighs and a nice round belly. I called to talk to a rep. from potty training concepts about fit because from other reviewers I was afraid that the leg holes would fit her to tightly according to weight only. Well I decided to go with the extra large with the measurements she gave me. They fit around the waist and leg, but the body of the training pants are HUGE. Even my almost 3 year old started to cry and said no mommy too big. I also got a pair of the regular training pants, same size and they are even bigger than the waterproof pants. Big waste of money on these. And they are ugly. By the way you can not return these. Disappointed to say the least.
NOTE by PTC: You can return UNOPENED packages of underwear - for sanitary reasons - you cannot returned opened packages of underwear. Please see our return policy.
Worth every penny (Dec 10, 2008)
Reviewer: J Newman
I just got these for my 2 1/2 year old daughter and they are amazing! The first time I put them on she wet them, saw that they made her feel wet and has been dry ever since. I thought these undies would be just like pull ups but they're not. They really feel wet!! Plus they absorb enough so that your floor doesn't get dirty when they are wet. They are bigger than usual put that just makes them perfect to pull up and down. THESE ARE A MUST HAVE!!
BEST PURCHASE I'VE MADE IN A LONG TIME! (Dec 10, 2008)
Reviewer: M Hargrave
I have struggled for years to potty train my autistic six year old daughter, trying every training method, pull-up, underwear, etc available. She has been in pull-ups forever and they just don't work on her. They are too much like a diaper (especially for a child with sensory problems) and pull too much moisture away so she never responded to any discomfort or wanted her pull up changed. These training pants are awesome because they are comfortable , look and feel like big girl panties and they hold in an incredible amount of liquid (which can be quite a bit on a six year old)Potty training her has always been a struggle since at school and daycare they wouldn't allow her to wear anything but a pull-up in case she had an accident it would be too much trouble to clean up. These training pants are so good that her teachers will even let her wear them to school, giving them the opportunity to help potty train her and she the opportunity to be more like her peers and not have to wear a pull-up to school. They are a great fit, undetectable under clothes, and easy to pull on and off (even for my daughter who has fine motor problems.) These are amazing. Buy several, they are worth the money.
GREAT TRAINING (Dec 09, 2008)
Reviewer: Aaron's Mommy
We have a 3 year old son that is potty training. These pants are GREAT, much better than using only underwear. Our son does get wet, his clothes, too, but it doesn't go all over the floor as we found with regular underwear. These were the closest to regular underwear, but still have some padding to absorb those accidents. We also tried the waterproof 2 in 1 - not as impressed. They don't fit well. We tried larger and smaller sizes. They still leak. Not worth it. Same with the Overnights - they leak, too, even with only one accident. The padded training pants, we found, were the best option. No sweating, either. Great fit!! Super soft. Couldn't be more pleased. They're just like underwear.
Work well and good price (Dec 09, 2008)
These work well for a waterproof pant. They are a bit "poofy" if you are using them on a smaller child so, if you are starting PTing younger just know that the size runs much larger than the cotton training pants. They do still work even if a little poofy and large and they are a good price value. Well worth having in your PTing stash